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Judge's Corner

March 2, 2004 - Humbled Counters

Title: Humbled counters
Questions: 11


Q: I have a Arcbound Crusher with 7 +1/+1 counters on it and attack with it. My opponent casts Humble and blocks with a normal 1/1 creature.

Is my Humbled creature a 7/7 or 0/1? My real question is, are the counters evaluated before or after the Humble effect?

A: It is a 0/1. I got my mind wrapped too far around 418.5a, and had to get the great Lee Sharpe to help me out of it. Here's the explanation he helped me to see:

"Counters are applied after all non-Characteristic Setting Abilities for power/toughness settings...

All power/toughness (changes in this instance) are (evaluated within) layer 6.

(1) apply characteristic-setting effects
(2) apply counters
(3) apply other continuous effects

Humble is (in step) 3, so it will be 0/1."

418.5a The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see rule 503, “Copying Objects”), (2) control-changing effects, (3) text-changing effects, (4) type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effects, (5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power or toughness, and (6) power- or toughness-changing effects.

Inside each layer, apply effects from characteristic-setting abilities first, then effects from all other abilities. For power- or toughness-changing effects, apply changes from counters after changes from characteristic-setting abilities. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 418.5b–418.5g).


Q: If you Confiscate a creature that has an equipment on it what happens to the equipment? Does it stay on the creature?

A: Until the controller of the equipment pays the equip cost to move it, yes. You gain control of the creature, but not any enchantments or equipment on it.

Q: If I cast Confiscate on a creature controlled by my opponent and then cast Legerdemain to exchange control of the Confiscated creature with a creature that opponent controls, what happens to the Confiscated creature, since it is my enchantment do I get to keep both creatures?

A: No. The control effect from the Legerdemain is timestamped later than the control effect from the Confiscate, so your opponent will have control of the creature with Confiscate on it.


Q: If I have a Planar Void and an Energy Field in play, when a card goes to the graveyard does it actually go to the graveyard before being removed from the game, or does it get removed instead of going to the graveyard?

-Daniel S.

A: Planar Void has a normal triggered ability that triggers on a card going to the graveyard. Since the card has to go to the graveyard for Planar Void to trigger, the card going to the graveyard will also trigger Energy Field.

Planar Void
Whenever a card is put into a graveyard, remove that card from the game.


Q: Auriok Steelshaper
Creature -- Human Soldier
Equip costs you pay cost {1} less.
As long as Auriok Steelshaper is equipped, Soldiers and Knights you control get +1/+1.

...does (equipping) include the 1 less, or is it just casting?

-Jake V.

A: The only thing Auriok Steelshaper effects are paying the equip costs to move it on to the creature. It does not reduce the cost to play the artifact in the first place.

Q: If I was attacking with an Arcbound Ravager for x damage and my opponent's life was x+1, I couldn't kill him that turn by sacing the Ravager to itself for the extra point, because he would be removed from combat if I did, correct?


A: Correct.


Q: with a Leonin Shikari out and you play multiple creatures on the same turn, is it possible to have them all attack with a Lightning Greaves out?

A: No. Attackers are all declared at the same time. It is not possible to declare some attackers, play the ability of Lightning Greaves, and then declare more attackers.


Q: with a March of the Machines out, what will happen to a Chalice of the Void for 3?


A: The Chalice will come out, then immediately be put into the graveyard, since its converted mana cost is 0. X is always 0 if the card is not on the stack.


Q: Can I use Thawing Glaciers' ability to fetch a land at discard clean up phase?

A: Yes.


Q: ...and if I do, does it stay on the field until next turn's "end of turn"?


A: No. Thawing Glaciers has been given errata to prevent this situation from happening. Here is Thawing Glaciers' current Oracle wording:

Thawing Glaciers
Thawing Glaciers comes into play tapped.
{1}, {T}: Search your library for a basic land card and put that card into play tapped. Then shuffle your library. If it's the end phase, return Thawing Glaciers to its owner's hand. Otherwise, return Thawing Glaciers to its owner's hand at end of turn.


Q: If I play Tooth and Nail and put a Furnace Dragon or a Reiver Demon into play, do their abilities go off?


A: No. You did not "play" them from your hand. You put them into play from your hand. See Mantra 6.


Tournament Report - FNM - Diamond Bar, CA - 1st

Well, in my quest to find a deck to play for the next season, I come upon the following...

Mono White Control
by: Antonio DeRosa (courtesy StarCity)

4 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Renewed Faith
2 Gilded Light
4 Eternal Dragon
3 Exalted Angel
4 Decree of Justice
2 Tower of Fortune
4 Mindslaver
4 Akroma's Vengeance
4 Wrath of God
4 Temple of the False God
4 Secluded Steppe
4 Cloudpost
13 Plains

3 Astral Slide
3 Wing Shards
1 Gilded Light
1 Exalted Angel
3 Circle of Protection: Red
4 Sacred Ground

When I first play a deck, I try to play the list exactly as written, to get a feel for the deck before I make changes. The only consideration was changing the Gilded Light for an Ivory Mask in the sideboard, but in the matches I would want it, it would just get Vengeanced away anyway. So I left it as is for the weekend.

32 players=5 rounds.

Round 1 - Joseph C. - Mono White Equip deck

This is a budget version of the deck. I saw no Shikaris, Steelshapers, or Skullclamps. As a matter of fact, I saw no rares period. He was just here with a friend.

Game 1 - He goes first, and gets a couple Den Guards and other creatures to knock my life down quickly. Fortunately, I have the Wayfarer on turn 1, and dig out my Cloudposts. I then cycle Decree for 9, and take full control of the board.

Sideboard: In: Exalted Angel. Out: Gilded Light.

Game 2 - He gets the equipment heavy draw, and never gets me below 15. I take some mana burn recurring Dragons, but this match is never in doubt, as I start this game with Wayfarer again.

Games: 2-0, Matches: 1-0

Round 2 - Ryan L. - Zombies

Game 1 - I play first this game, and it goes much slower without the Wayfarer engine. Still, 3 zombies can't get me below 14, as I get an early Exalted, which goes to town on his life total.

Sideboard: Nothing.

Game 2 - A Vengeful Dead and Shepherd of Rot get me to 10, but starting the game with DOUBLE Wayfarer is just WAY too much momentum. A hard cast Renewed Faith puts my life total well out of reach.

Games: 4-0, Matches: 2-0

Round 3 - Tim C. - W/G Urzatron - basically a mirror match, only he splashes green for Sylvan Scrying and other spells.

Game 1 - I go first, and double Wayfarer is only good to send in the beats. He draws and plays Mindslaver, and I cycle away one Vengeance, but scoop when I draw the second on my Slavered turn.
Sideboard: In: 2 Astral Slide, 3 Wing Shards, Exalted Angel, Gilded Light. Out: 4 Weathered Wayfarer, 2 Wrath of God, 2 Akroma's Vengeance.

Game 2 - He takes 2 mulligans to start this game. He attempts to get off an early Mindslaver, but I have the Gilded Light. I Slaver him, and miscount the mana, only making 4 Angels. He has the Wrath, but I draw another Exalted, and he doesn't draw another answer.

Sideboard: In: 4 Weathered Wayfarer. Out: 3 Astral Slide, 1 Renewed Faith.

Game 3 - I throw away a hand with 1 land and no Wayfarers, and keep my 6. He gets turn 2 Urzatron, and plays Mindslaver. I luckily don't have the Wrath, but he plays (for me) face down Angel and Tower, and then Stones them away. Unfortunately for him, he draws into a bad mana flood, and with my Weathered Wayfarers coming online after the Wrath, I play Mindslaver, activate it on a 1 turn delay, then untap, make 9 Angels, and take his last turn for him.

Games: 6-1, Matches: 3-0

Round 4 - Scott S. - Mid-Range Affinity (8 counters [Leak/Override] + Assert after boarding)

Game 1 - I leak his counters out with an Angel and Mindslaver, then wreck him with Vengeance. I had a backup if he had the fourth counter, but it was unlikely, as he had to double Leak the Slaver.

Sideboard: In: 3 Wing Shards, Exalted Angel. Out: 4 Weathered Wayfarer.

Game 2 - Go back and read my sideboarding again. Then realize who has the choice to play first.

Double Myr Enforcer does its business.

Sideboard: Nothing (already sideboarded to play).

Game 3 - I throw back a hand of Plains, Temple, and 5 non-land. (I would have kept it on the draw.) Unfortunately, I get the same land in my 6 card hand, and keep it.

Triple cycled Renewed Faith keeps my life total up against a Frogmite, face down Angel forces him to overextend, and I have the Vengeance after Mindslavering him, since he had no counters.

Games: 8-2, Matches: 4-0

Round 5 - Bryant M. - W/G Urzatron

Game 1 - I believe the game was stalled early, and I get Mindslaver and Slaver his hand out, cashing in Decree for the win. Sorry here Bryant - the notes are sparse, and I’m writing this 3 days later.

Sideboard: In: Exalted Angel, Gilded Light. Out: 2 Weathered Wayfarer.

Game 2 - Again, we play the long game, and he gets the first Slaver out and sits on it. I try to play mine, and make the same mistake I did in playtesting this on Magic Online - Mindslaver is a legend. I scoop.

Sideboard: In: 2 Weathered Wayfarer. Out: 2 Renewed Faith.

Game 3 - Turn 3 face down Angel for me puts the early pressure on him, and he stalls into the turn 6 Vengeance. He casts Eternal Dragon, and attacks me with it, but I draw into the Slaver, activate the Slaver on a 1 turn delay, and make 9 Angels. With that, the Swiss is mine.

Games: 10-3, Matches: 5-0
The top 8 arrange a prize split, and we go home.

(Tournament postscript: Skullclamps on opponent's side this tournament: _0_.)

See you Friday.

Bill Guerin
DCI Level 2 Judge.

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